Living mutual aid forum: more reactivity, more fraternity, more volunteers - more support
gated
Christophe FAGEDET
Finally, answers by the forum, by promoting mutual assistance through traditional forum options (phbb type).
1/ members with nb post, nb “thank you”, and rank
value activity AND especially virtuous activity with the number of thanks
(a “thank you” button is automatically integrated into each answer, and the number of posts and thanks is incremented and integrated into the members)
Allows you to “rank” the level of expertise of the members for the person who asked the question and reads the answer of an “unofficial” staff member, so “special” grades for Elodie or other.
2/ Subscribe to the forum itself: receive an email in case of a new topic (establish a healthy “competition” on ENORIA helpers)
3/ Subscribe to a topic that you are not the author of, (or on which you answered in the user settings of the forum). We are interested in this subject in particular and want to know the developments
4/ Post screenshots, even files etc...
* Other “classic” forum options can also be like an end of post banner, to make it living/funny, but in any case with a forum user section where you set your own settings. In traditional ways, there are also forum administrator roles, which can be assigned outside the staff: to avoid abuse, merge identical topics, guide posters to find information...
All these are basic functions of free forums like phbb, so no need to reinvent the wheel or develop anything, just resume the existing. and could even (to see) be accessible to those who do not have enoria user rights, with simple basic forum sections, and a registered “users” level.
So there would necessarily be a MaParoisse section that will prove crucial in order not to overwhelm Elodie at Support.
In short, a REAL FORUM, and that very quickly by taking over the existing free
DOING ASSOCIATIVE WORK... with members, not only with volunteers
Make the mutual aid forum a horizontal tool for mutual aid between users (who are members of the association let's not forget it, not only volunteers). I am sure that ENORIA would benefit a lot, for example with feedback on the documentation, examples of good practices that could be given in a link to the general documentation (and which would therefore trigger the virtuous mechanism of going to the forum) rather than making a support ticket, which should remain exceptional but which is not exceptional because of the clinical death of the forum. You have to be realistic, the “Maraine parish” or “diocese administrator” level is generally incompetent on most questions, the doc has no “good practices” aspect/"How do I do that?” , so we end up in support asking operational questions, which are cumbersome, exasperating, and we end up with answers that are sometimes dry (and that's understandable, but it's still rough)
START THE VIRTUOUS CIRCLE OF MUTUAL AID
and win a lot of volunteers
THANKS
EDIT: Apparently there is a place where document model “experts” discuss and exchange, but who do they do it with? but where is it happening?? ... If it were a support forum section, maybe it would be easier no?
A
Alain
updated the status to
gated
This ticket is now “closed.”
However, a number of requests in this ticket are being processed:
- https://roadmap.enoria.app/developpements-demandes/p/forum-utilisateurs
- https://roadmap.enoria.app/developpements-demandes/p/auto-notifications-sur-forum-dentraide
- https://roadmap.enoria.app/developpements-demandes/p/forum-dentraide-indique-si-le-sujet-est-resolu (the resolution of the subject will notify the person who gave the “right” answer)
- the possibility of subscribing to a topic that is being answered
for attachments, this request will not be processed for the moment, see https://roadmap.enoria.app/developpements-demandes/p/ajouter-des-images-dans-forum-dentraide
If there are specific shortcomings identified, they may be the subject of new requests for improvement.
Christophe FAGEDET
I understood what this famous place “where experts discuss” is, to do this you have to click “become a volunteer” to choose your domain, and you are invited to join their development platform. I notice that, in fact, people sign up as a “volunteer” but to ask questions, which should be part of the support forum.
This excludes the members of the de facto association who are “just” them on the support forum, on the online documentation, and therefore overburdened the support by questions about the operation rather than bugs, which exasperates Elodie and understandably so.
It is finally an operation that claims to be associative but that is lost with this pyramidal functioning.
In an association, you can communicate between members without necessarily being volunteers normally...
This is also the meaning of this request for evolution into a real forum between members/users who will also create a new kind of volunteering in this forum, between those happy to share their experience, and those who will manage this forum in a volunteer way (admins) by sections:
* ENORIA for Dummies (beginners)
* How DO WE manage this in ENORIA (sharing experience)
* etc...
Ghislaine HENNEQUIN
Good evening,
I don't understand all the languages used in computer science (Can't wait for Pentecost; -)
I have been using ENORIA for 3 months and when I have questions, I admit that I have not yet fully understood what means of communication to use between: Forum, support and change request. Moreover, these 3 methods are in very different places, which does not facilitate their use.
(I haven't seen where the “volunteer” group was yet)...
Would it be possible to give a brief description of the type of request expected in each “group”, to avoid referral errors that must be quite time-consuming, recurrent and annoying, for the experts who respond to us.
And/or group all of these requests and crucial information by means of searching by keyword or “phrase”, in order not to clutter up the requests... Here is my reflection for the evening...
M
Misha
Christophe FAGEDET: Thanks for this detailed feedback on forum features that you would like to see evolve — some ideas are worth considering. However, improving the forum is not on the agenda in the short term.
That said, quoting an Enoria employee by name in a public comment at this critical juncture does not seem welcome. As for qualifying functioning with terms like “clinical death” or “pyramidal”, this is not the spirit expected here, whose purpose is to propose improvements in a constructive way.
Enoria is supported by both employees and volunteers who invest every day. Criticism is welcome, but it deserves to be formulated with the respect that this daily work deserves for all of us — and the fellowship you want is also built in the way we talk to each other.
In essence: the Mattermost channels are open to all Enoria users — you just need to request them, and it's usually done in less than half a day. This space is already hosting lively exchanges, and everyone is welcome. Forum administration rights can also be granted to anyone who wishes to get involved on a voluntary basis. Do we still have to let it be known with courtesy.
Christophe FAGEDET
Misha
I hope that you will give me the floor in a non-pyramidal way then, during the general meeting (the priest gave me power), because it is a shame that you do not see what I am trying to express here, probably clumsily. This is NOT A REQUEST FOR SOFTWARE IMPROVEMENT, but an evolution of the very functioning of the association. (unfortunately going through here was my only way of making this contribution, which should challenge you precisely about this lack of associative dialogue)
The reality is that the only user contact (I'm exaggerating, 95%) is with Elodie: support, forum, and even association secretariat. I experienced a burn-out in the voluntary sector, I took years to recover from it, I think that her life would be greatly changed by an active forum, and I claim to cite her for that.
I have a lot of expertise in the associative sector, and that's what Enoria unfortunately lacks: at the user level, we have no access to the association (the association's website does not have any of the “legal” elements of an association by the way, you should pay attention to it). Your reaction is also a reflection of this “clan” functioning (sorry if the term is shocking, it's just descriptive, I don't see another one) on developers and staff, you no longer perceive the arid aspect of your contacts with users, which is understandable with your nose in the handlebars and all the work you do, most of which is voluntary.
It's a shame that you perceive this as an attack when I'm just trying to show you the enormous human contribution that the software could make and the association with a truly living support forum: huge volunteer gain: perfectly up-to-date documentation, on which we can run an AI, quick response from users to other users, simple search in topics,...
Hoping to be able to discuss this subject during the GA... which I hope will be a moment of calm and constructive sharing, with one's nose raised.
Good day and good luck
christopher
M
Misha
Christophe FAGEDET: The association team can be reached on Mattermost. Live, on holidays and Sundays, often from 6 a.m. to 2 a.m., because yes, between the volunteers involved and the employees, attendance time is important. It is mentioned in the welcome file.
We do not question the usefulness of a “living” forum, but regret the form of your interventions and our exchanges here, which in no way reflect the spirit in which we want the association to evolve.
We do not shy away from constructive exchanges/criticisms and only ask for progress together.
But on the subject of the forum, which is the main theme of this exchange, I told you that we did not plan to improve it at the moment because we are already mobilized on other topics. that does not mean that we will never do it...
And, in short, are you on Mattermost? Maybe that's the first step you should do, since you know it exists?
Christophe FAGEDET
Misha
“The association team” are your first words
It is always difficult to put an intention into writing, and for you to perceive mine in reverse despite my efforts is depressing. On the other hand, your answer starting with “the association team” reflects the functioning that you have integrated so much that it is normal and that is the heart of the problem.
For this “USER SUPPORT FORUM” aspect:
The software collaborative development tool mattermost is not an Enoria user forum, is it? (if not the one in the software, what is it?)
How to allow USERS (and not the “association team”) to:
* discuss the association,
* create fraternity between users,
* exchange best practices with enoria (“how we did marriages with ENORIA”),
* tavern: let's talk about everything and nothing. Have you read the Pope's encyclical on AI?
* tips and tricks outside of ENORIA: I use CANVA for our communication
* ENORIA evolutions: “if we worked together to define an evolution between users” (because is “requested developments” really satisfactory?)
* maybe unexpected things would be created by themselves as an exchange section reserved for priests
* etc... what we do in a real association
In short, what I have just quoted in bulk could be sections of an ENORIA user forum, moreover entirely managed/administrated/moderated by the users themselves, with exclusive access to those who have enoria user rights (not outside), without resources from the voluntary or paid association.
It would also be a great communication tool for the association...
If I can speak at the GA (which is not on the agenda), I would try to get you across this very important idea of “MAKING ASSOCIATION”. At the GA on 22... maybe (no need to continue this “deaf dialogue here”)
Christophe FAGEDET
Not in GA either, it was locked:) Well say so
My last hope: the Enoria Diocesan Monthly Committee
which I learned about and was therefore appointed diocesan admin to be able to participate. These are the joys of a rural diocese, it is very small, it has its advantages sometimes.
I think I can convince the dioceses that it would suit them too if users could help each other rather than having someone from the diocese who receives requests that they cannot answer because nobody knows everything about Enoria.
In addition, in the diocese we don't use Enoria like parishes, all this is so obvious though...
It was to follow up on those who voted for this request.
I'll let you know if I manage to get across the totally crazy idea of horizontality in enoria:) which apparently is fiercely attached to strictly vertical control, it's very strange.
It was a new episode of the series “The tribulations of a rural parish secretary facing the giant”:))
After the next episode
and keep yourself cool
A
Alain
Christophe FAGEDET will soon be able to allow the author of a message to validate the correct answers, and a bit of filtering.
Two very personal remarks in counterpoint to yours:
- the users are not members of the association (the parishes are) and I am not at all comfortable with creating a “church within the Church” that would be a “tavern” type discussion space reserved for Enoria users, which would in fact exclude the neighbor who does not have access to discussions on the pope's encyclical;
- diocesan (or parish) support is primarily a matter of the functioning of the diocese (or parish). In my parish, a nice banner on the home page says “for support contact enoria@laparoisse.fr “, in other words, the forum will remain anecdotal. If the support says “ask for help on the forum” and answers them, then the forum will be of interest. In this case, it will be legitimate to post a development request that corresponds to a specific use, such as: “I would like to be notified of messages from members of my entity”
Christophe FAGEDET
Alain
Good morning
So first, thank you for removing these ambiguities, which are a source of problems, which made me very uncomfortable when I understood it, but since no one had noticed it here... so thank you
1/ users who are not members of the ENORIA association: YES
2/ “diocesan (or parish) support is primarily a matter of the functioning of the diocese”: YES
The diocese provides Enoria support to users (only because of this forum problem). This was certainly not the case at the start of Enoria, but it is complicated for a diocese that is currently starting to assist its parishes and their users. I heard 10 times on video “no one can know everything about Enoria”, but this is what the dioceses are asked to ensure. There is also a problem of sharing diocesan resources, and this is where the mutual aid forum would be interesting for dioceses.
These ambiguities find a way out by themselves:
During the last “administrators” video (recorded), a user explained how, not finding any answers to her questions, she ended up finding by herself other users on social networks from other dioceses to help each other.
How long will it take before this is really structured into a forum, website, facebook, telegram...?
You write that you don't want a “tavern-style discussion space reserved for Enoria users”, but now it's too late, users are starting to get by outside Enoria! so why not proactively organize it inside?
A lady who knows how to manage baptisms with Enoria in her northern parish would be delighted, and valued, to share her experience with a lady from the south with no concept of diocese. All this is a source of fraternity, sharing, joy, I would even go so far as to talk about synodality in the organization of the church if this concept speaks to you.
Volunteers cannot be confined to their vertical diocesan hierarchy in our time; it is anachronistic.
It is beyond me that you do not see the source of extraordinary benefits that a living forum could be, far beyond helping to support dioceses.
Therefore, this user forum problem raises a fundamental enoria problem, which the team should address in order to be proactive.
I will submit this to the diocese committee in September now that I am part of it.
A
Alain
Christophe FAGEDET
Good morning again,
It doesn't matter if people create a “tavern”, a “little prayer”, or what do I know, great! But it is not under the authority of the Church.
I have always opposed the temptation of the “elite” of the Church to behave like the elite of the church, for example Caté+, advance reservations of stays or that kind of thing. In the same way, the enoria user account is an access to the service of the parish community and certainly not a link given by the priest to a forum between people who are necessarily good since they all have a parish service. this is my dogmatic opposition to the “tavern”.
--
on the live forum: certainly. I don't know how the diocese committee works, but I suppose it's a place where you have to arbitrate. And between the request for an all-module phpBB that will perhaps bring users in a very hypothetical way, and another priority request from another diocese that corresponds to a proven need, it will be difficult to justify the phpBB. This is the meaning of my previous message: try to transfer the parochial/dean/diocesan support to the current forum. If it works, it will give arguments to improve or replace it. If that doesn't work... maybe the forum is a very 2000s tool and you need to create a knowledge base, a conversational agent or any other tool.
Christophe FAGEDET
Alain
incomprehensible
a forum that “which will perhaps bring users in a very hypothetical way”. In the real world, a forum with completely basic (and free) features will explode in users in a very short time, because IT WORKS.
You do not realize that Enoria brings together a very large part of all the little hands that really make up the daily life of the Church in France. It is a group of rare, exceptional people, I am amazed every time I discover the functioning of a new presbytery in my diocese, who volunteer their time in tasks that are often thankless and that no one sees. Most of my work consists in supporting them in this digital transition without making them leave.
Enoria has a unique opportunity in the very history of the Church to be able to connect these people horizontally, with fruits, I repeat, that will be incredible and even probably unexpected.
There is no danger in letting them discuss together, organize themselves in synodality (search if you don't know), no risk of schism, exclusion. They are the opposite definition of a “church elite.”
It is this “elite” who, day by day, works for the church: the administration, registers, lists, logistics, stock, accounts, song sheets, etc. All these little hands, who do not speak, do not theorize, do not theorize, do not complain, do not complain, but act concretely, calling them “elite” literally amazes me.
Finally, on diocesan arbitration, it will quickly be seen in my opinion:
1 admin per diocese full time to do user support x 50 dioceses = 50 full-time in France to ensure user support in Enoria. (whether employed or voluntary)
If we have a functional mutual aid forum, diocesan support magically melts in quantity of work by limiting itself to the specific diocesan aspect of enoria, that is to say more and the occasional help at the beginning for a parish in the diocese.
This free time for these 50 people will do something else for the dioceses, will quickly be understood by the dioceses.
The problem is that if this forum is outside Enoria, we will not be able to limit access to Enoria users and will therefore be infected by trolls etc.
Christophe FAGEDET
I would add that a “chat bot” or AI equivalent on the enoria doc is not a forum why?
What is missing is the USE aspect!
Everyone uses Enoria in different ways, it is above all a toolbox.
Enoria cannot provide a tutorial “how to manage baptisms in the parish with Enoria” in a centralized manner.
On the other hand, a parish can testify to how it does it, with Enoria, and whoever reads it will adapt it to its own reality on the ground
A
Alain
Christophe FAGEDET I am not saying the opposite about the “elite”, I am saying that you did not think of the person who does not have an enoria user account.
and it remains obvious that the diocesan administrators will continue to provide support, even on the forum. Something you seem to refuse.
Christophe FAGEDET
Alain,
Deaf dialogue, without interest
So this will be my last message, I will keep informed of what others have happened in the diocese committee.
------------------------------------------------
But for you, and because we cannot communicate directly, without annoying everyone, also due to the lack of an efficient forum, I am putting the church back in the center of the village for you:
What “person who does not have an enoria user account” would feel excluded from not having access to an enoria support forum?
Normally asking the question should be enough to answer it, right?
If not, give examples
because in order not to exclude these “cases”, should we EXCLUDE everyone, deprive all of the hard-working hands of the French Church, this incredible resource of goodwill to be able to talk to each other?
(you will have understood that these are not “real” questions)
It's simply vertiginous
As for diocesan support, obviously you don't know anything about it, right now it's “elite of the church” but well, I would just answer NO, the diocesan admins are not going to provide support on the general forum of Enoria.
And how to do it really without any of the features I described: without notifications, without follow-up, without counting thanks, without respondent “grade” to evaluate it, etc etc
I already described all the functions you need for a real living forum, functions that you just need to take, it's open source, it's free
Depriving all the volunteers of France of this space of mutual aid for a supposed “exclusion”... adichas, we obviously do not have the same approach to parish volunteering at all